This is MY reply to Sam's Second Letter
I see that I have really offended you with my last mail. Your mail is absolutely overflowing with resentment. Quite frankly, you severely lack in evidence to support your personal opinions so you compensate it with slurs about my intelligence. No thank you, we're all looking for a logical discussion here and if i wanna do name calling and teasing, I'll go to my 4 yr old cousin. It looks like she has more professionalism.
One more thing, most of your points go round and
round the same thing so to save time by not repeating myself, some parts
of my reply consist of merely "as above" or "refer to my replies above"
which would mean that one of my points earlier, answers your point (I have
done so especially with regards to your refusal to take the challenge of
By the way, you insist that neither you nor your girlfriend mentioned anything about doing a site on the Quran. I quote:
Also, Sam's next task will be debunking the Quran. That, habibti, will
be my contribution to his page.
> >This was so funny! No... I leave those who I find the most humorous to her.She is the one who has the issues with Islam, > >not me. I find it barbarous and below contempt. I thought she would get a kick out of you, and she did.
Sam, I see your point. So what you are trying to SAY is that, you are far too good for something so "barbarous and below contempt", you're ABOVE something so filthy but your girlfriend isn't so you just leave the "low" stuff to her. How convenient.. I guess you're not much of the equality person you go gabbering on and on about being.
Oh she got a kick did she? As far as we can tell, her replies are even more ridiculous than yours. Yes I imagined her jumping up and down FUMING her head off. Judging from the replies i got from her, I have REALLY hit bull's eye.
>Actually, had you read my whole page... like the very page that you linked to my cert from, you would have read that it was >meant as a joke, and that those who took it seriously should have their head examined. Maybe you should have paid closer >attention?
thanx for pointing that out, i didn't notice it.
> >And why create a site for something that you find below contempt? Or why create a site on a primitive religion? Or why >> create a site on somethingthat promotes barbarism?All valid questions.
All very valid questions. All the answers to which tell me you use that as an excuse to hide the fact that u just can't find
enough CONCRETE substance. It's a very very lame excuse. There are thousands of sites on things which
It reminds me of a scenario. A student in class asks the professor a rather difficult question to which the Prof knows not the answer. So in an attempt to salvage his dignity, the Professor scoffs, "What a silly question! You don't need to know such things for this syllabus!" OR "Aaah, very good question but I won't give you the answer right away. I want all of you to go home and think about it."
Very lame. I honestly expected you to do better at proving us wrong.
> >Interesting perspective. You ask what happened to democracy with one hand...and with the other you ask why they should >>have dislike for anything remotely oppressive. You struck me as more intelligent than this at first. I am sure that you could >>reason through why someone who enjoys democratic freedom so foerign to Muslims and Islamic countries would dislike
I reckon you must find it interesting..Well keep humouring yourself because you completely missed the point of what I wrote.
try again: why does a country who brags about having the best sturdy human rights laws and most democratic system, worry that something like religion would take away all that and replace it with oppression?
> >Yes. I can confidently say that this is not a problem in modern societies. I can also confidently say that women in "modern >>societies" are becoming more and more confident for the most part by the equality that is not found in more primitive >>societies that cling to Islam. Any woman who feels that she needs to conform to fit in has a personal problem. It is too >>typical of an outsider to blame the whole for the faults of the individual.
Oh my, how nice of you to mention this.
You say, "It is too typical of an outsider to blame the whole for the faults of the individual."
Isn't that what you are doing?
So what you are trying to say is that some Muslim men (and other isolated examples you managed to quote) represent the WHOLE (Islam) but the huge aspect of society called "judging by looks" DOES NOT.
Thanx for reiterating what we have been
trying to explain to you for the past few weeks.
And you have definitely lost most of what credit I gave you by claiming "I can confidently say that (social pressure) is not a
problem in modern societies."
I guess some excuse is better than none. Sounds
like something a frog in a well would say.
> >I WROTE:
> >For a Muslim woman who wears the hijaab, she is judged by her mind and her deeds only...not by how sexy she looks, how much cleavage she's showing and how much make up she's wearing. when a man looks at her, he looks into her eyes and his focus is on what she says and the way she thinks and not anything else. that is freedom.
> >You don't really believe this, do you? If you do, then I am afraid that you are incredibly naive. Women wear hijaab because >> it distracts men from God.
I think if you use your judgement to differentiate between naive and wise, we might as well not have this discussion.
> >It is the exact same reason why Orthodox Jewish women cover their
> heads. I am sure that they stem back to the same source... a Jewish source.
> Your entire religion does stem back to Judaism, you know? It is one of the
> two bastard children of Judaism. Christianity is the other in case you
> didn't already guess.
and your point being?
Are you saying that Muslims deny Islam's relationship
with Judaism and Christianity?
> >Has your modern society ever had a female leader? do women even RUN for elections? What happened to the > >independance and rights of women? Do you know how many Islamic countries were and are still ruled by women?
> >Hello?!?!? Anyone home? Do you know that women are gaining more and moreseats in congress in the US? Do you know > >that women are gaining more and more power in this society?
> >I think that that is quite a lot for a country that is only 200 years old.
Gaining more and more power yes, i don't see a single part of my reply saying they don't hold seats in congress or that they
have little power. I asked a specific question. HAS YOUR SOCIETY had a female leader and do they stand up for elections, let alone actually win?
Someone brought up that yes, where he lives, New Jersey, the Governer is female. I am not referring to Congress. Females hold seats in parliament in developing counries too. I'm talking about real authority - as in the leader of a country.
Let me give you an example:
Do u know how the government runs the education system in some countries? In some places, very few people want to become teachers and what the govt does to entice and pacify is make up a whole bunch of positions and posts like senior teacher, head of department, etc etc.
Giving women the chance to win seats in congress
can be seen as pacification. What are the chances of a women standing up
against Clinton in the next elections and actually winning. If you say they are good and it could happen then I am wrong.
Don't tell me that it is difficult for a woman to rule a country as big as the USA - that goes against your "women's rights stand". Bangladesh has a much larger population and it had been ruled (although rather unwell) by female leaders for quite a few years.
Women in the USA are given more power, YES. But when you sit down and talk about Precidency, women are pretty far from it.
I was talking to a lecturer in school yesterday and he told me about the work of an anthropologist called Margerate Mead. This lady did a comparative culture study...a Eastern one versus the Western one (She's Western mind you) and one part of her study involved POLYGAMY. She concluded that while Eastern cultures are accused of allowing polygamy, the West should not point fingers at them. WHY? Simple, she discovered that even though Westerners do not have many wives concurrently, they practise and accept something called SERIAL POLYGAMY. It is having one wife after another which is reflected in the divorce and remarriage rates in the West.
And when was the concept of alimony and voting
rights implemented into the judicial system of America?
It was only last century that Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan Brownell Anthony and Gloria Steinem lead women to voting rights. The Suffrage Amendment and Susan B. Anthony Amendment (which are the laws passed to allow women to vote, in case you didn't know) was passed in 1920.
Voting rights and alimony was made COMPULSORY
in Islam 1400 years ago.
Take a look at Sura Maeda. Primitive you say?
> >The reason? They are sick. And a book like the Qu'ran that not only allows it, but teaches it, as well, is a very sick book. > >Makes me wonder if there are any self-respecting Muslim women at all.
ofcourse you would wonder. if there are any self-respecting women at all? Pffft....you would know wouldn't you? if you had an open mind and looked beyond your warped personal opinion, you wouldn't have to wonder anymore.
> >Whay a load of crap! Have you heard of the Bible Code? Who is going to go through the Qu'ran or the Bible and prove > >this crap wrong? That is why it is there. Because the person who proposed it was confident enough to know that it would > >be near impossible to disprove.
So, basically what YOU are trying to tell me is that, "Yes Fareena the point that you have made is based on proof and analysis whereas mine is merely a personal opinion which basically has no basis because yours is 'near impossible to disprove'.
and besides, you went thru' the bible didn't you?
you found inconsistencies and contradictions didn't you? why not do the
same with the Quran?
> >tell me Sam, If you haven't realised, Prophet Muhammad did not have a laptop. He did not have word count or the > >scientific information that is in the Quran (which speaks of the data only scientists today are discovering).
> >I would love to hear how you would explain how this book came about DEVOID OF ANY INCONSISTENSIES, > >MISTAKES, CONTRADICTIONS 1400 years ago.
> >Boy! You bought that bridge hook, line and sinker, didn't you? There are no mistakes, inconsistencies, etc?!? First, the fact > >that a book has no mistakes does not make it divine.
Yes I did swallow hook, line and sinker because people like you who persistantly come up with personal opinions can never back up what you say.
1) find me mistakes, inconsistencies and contradiction to prove to me that it worse than the Bible....please don't waste time, saying there are mistakes, find them and show us it is worse than the bible.
2) fine, if a book that has no mistakes at all, is not considered divine then YOU find another book like it. BETTER STILL, well let's see you produce one
Al Qur'an (4:82)
"Have they not considered the Qur'an, if it came, other than Allah, surely they will find in it many inconsistencies."
So Sam, this is not my challenge. The Qur'an challenges
you. Write one like it or find the many mistakes and contradictions it
would have if it was written "by a group of men" as you say. It's your
> Second, I would like to see some proof that there are no mistakes. Can you prove it? No. Have you even read
> theQu'ran all of the way through? I am willing to guess that the answer is no to that as well.
refer to URLs below
NO I have not read the entire Qur'an. But are you trying to say that those who HAVE are experts when it comes to the Quran? are you trying to say that because I have not read the Qur'an totally, I cannot be right? There aren't other ways of learning about the Qur'an besides reading it? Let me tell you something, my mother has read the Qur'an many many times but I can confidently say I know more about the contents of the Qur'an than she does.
> >The violence that the Qu'ran has produced is all of the mistakes that I need to see. You see... with such a primitive text, it is > >proven wrong before the pages have even begun to turn.Do you know about the Baha'i massacres in the 1850's? Probably > >not, I would guess.
Sam, you want mistakes of no proof?
refer to URLs at the bottom of the page.
And if your ego doesn't allow you to take another person's word for it, I have said before, you are more than welcome to do your own analysis. try breaking down the mathematical lock up of the Quranic verses and wordings. Try refute the scientific verses. try analysing the word order and arrangement. TRY IT! you're the one who is saying there ARE mistakes, YOU SHOW ME!
the violence is THE ONLY thing you find int he Qur'an to label a "mistake"?
firstly, whether it is a mistake or not is highly debatable so please be more specific by quoting the verses which speak of violence. From there we move on to analysing if it really IS a mistake or if it merely a manipulation and misunderstanding on your part.
> >Please. Neither of us have made any mention of making a Muslim website. I have not studied it thouroughly because it is below contempt.
> >And you are making shit up with this convert three people thing.Christianity has no such tenet.
I QUOTE AUGUST.
"Also, Sam's next task will be debunking the Quran. That, habibti, will be my contribution to his page."
Thanx for pointing this out - "I have not studied
it thouroughly"...in case you didn't realise, most of us have already
Like I said before. Sam thinks the world is stupid just cos' his knowledge is limited. If you observed more you will
know that converting three people to get to heavan is a VERY common practice among christians. Maybe in your own little world, practices are as you think they are but if you open your eyes and accept the fact that there are many things you are not aware of, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
> >Sam, if you judge a religion and culture based on a small cohort of people then from my experiences, I can readily say that >>Wiccans are impulsive, insecure, VERY EMOTIONAL and rather moronic. Am I right? Cos' I have received several >>e-mails from Wiccans (your girlfriend included) with regards to the contents of my site and BELIEVE ME, one proved >>more moronic than the other. I refer you to a section called 'Emails I have received' on my website. I have put there a thread >>of e-mails that we exchanged with a Wiccan not too long ago. She's not the only Wiccan who came charging at me.
Okay, looks like I have to SPELL this out to you. Sam, this means, listen carefully, that if i took on your attitude of stereotyping and generalising, Wiccans ARE as described above. are they?
> >I have to say though, your girlfirend isn't all that bad, she certainly makes more sense that the others I have spoken to. >>Although I did have a good laugh when she sent me a warning in reply to mail i sent you. I have a flower in my signature file >>which is sent automatically to every receipient. She called me something like a habibti (made me wonder if she knows
>> English or not - or if she's trying to impress me by using words I myself do not use) and said that it is HARAM to send a >>flower to a man (her boyfriend) via the internet...*laugh*...what a way to start the day!
> >Yes, well... you have proven her correct by this response. I took nothing from your letter about the flower. But she does >>know what is Haram and if she says that it is, then I believe her. I also believe that you know that it is Haram. Of course... >>you probably pick and choose which rules of your religion you choose to follow.
the world is not centered around you Sam, IF you haven't noticed and that flower was not for YOU. Islam advocates beauty. That flower is an addition to every e-mail so each e-mail is not just a bunch of cold letters.
"if she says that it is, then I believe her."...I am beginning to see what the basis of most of your opinions come from. HEARSAY.
> >Well... besides confusing two issues (humans vs. other animals and free-will) this is the typical Christian answer, too. It is of >>course a load, since true free-will would be knowing what is real or not and then choosing.
and in what sense do you see your idea of God automatically PUMPING info. into the minds of people as FREE-WILL in comparison to the Islamic concept of choosing?
Typical Chrisitan response? Why not? Weren't you the one who kept saying the three religions are tied together? Where do you see a Muslim denying that Christianity and Islam have many similarities?
> >Um.... OK. You clearly do not understand what destiny is. You can not have a choice in destiny since destiny is something > >that choice plays no part in. Destiny = everything is predetermined.
> >Look the word up.
I am more and more convinced that you know less and less of this religion. A system of being able to choose and reject shapes our destiny and Allah knows exactly what the future holds for us because he knows what we will decide to choose and reject. If it still doesn't make sense, don't lose too much sleep over it.
> >And you read into my question exactly what you wish. A God with all of the power has the responsibility to convince. You say that one-fifth of the world is Muslim. Sounds like your God is not very convincing. Oh... and how many of "one-fifth of the world" is too young to know better since Muslims generally have a zillion children per family?
ohhh.....and so NOW you are implying that having many kids is no good?
If you want to talk about something as silly as how convincing God is, does your faith have more than a billion followers? I guess not. According to "The Almanac & Book of Facts", the population increased 137% within the past decade, Christianity increased 46%, while Islam increased 235%. And in case you're caught in time, we're past the baby-boom era.
Islam is based on faith and it does not convert people who are half-hearted. The main influx of converts to Islam is now coming from the educated West.
A personal friend of mine once accompanied his friends to church for a pre-Christmas get together. Upon doing a short little survey, the Priest found out that my friend is a non-Christian. The Priest got the ushers to FORCE my friend of the bench and go forward to him. My friend had no choice as it was becoming a rather embarrassing scene. In front of over 500 people, the Priest then made my friend close his eyes & repeat a long verse after him. Once done, the Priest declared - "Congratulations! You are now a Christian and a member of the church!"
You think Allah isn't convincing because we are
not yet the largest religion in the world? The above shows you why other
religions are and Islam isn't.
> >how is the information unclear and irrefutable? please be more specific when you mention inconsistencies and > >contradictions.
> >No, thanks. Again. It is below contempt. It is about at the same level as cave-drawings as far as theology goes.
thank you for proving my point. personal opinions with NO proof, no basis.
see my replies above, I don't want to repeat myself.
> >>Just like you question the clarity of the Quran, people have constantly done so ever since Prophet Muhammad's time. In >>the Quran, there is scientific data about cosmology, evolution of life from water, growth of the embryo, etc. Cosmology was >>explained clearly 600 years after the revelation of the Quran, by Gallileo. That's when people were able to make sense of >>the 'unclear' verses on cosmology. Before that, they were confused and pointing fingers as you are doing now. Alot of the >>Quran's verses have been explained by scientific discovery over the last 2 centuries and particularly the last 3 >>decades..before that it was UNCLEAR.
> >And if you believe this, then you are even more gullible then I earlier gave you credit before. Like the typical fundamentalist >>that you are, you do not state anything specific, but go on and on about generalities that can neither be proven nor >>disproven. Congratulations. You are a typical fundie.
I am the one who goes on and on about generalities? You have a weird way of denying logic in order to prove your point.
One of the people who read your mail said - "THERE IS NOTHING THIS GUY HAS SAID THAT I COULD NOT REFUTE"......and he's NOT even a Muslim!
I think the problem of generalising without much proof or evidence besides "No, thanks. Again. It is below contempt." lies with you...I admit, I am not some Muslim scholar but I insist on logic. And in that field, you have failed.
Here's my evidence, (look at URLs at the bottom of page) most written by Americans like you. If you are really interested in learning something, and not just going on about your personal opinions.
> >Give me something solid. Something concrete. Of course, this will include proving that the verses you claim prove this > >science were actually written in the time that the Qu'ran is believed to have been written. I am willing to bet that the Qu'ran > >was written by several men (just like the Bible) and that Muhammed was just a man who was mythologized (just like > >Jesus). This makes your religion not equal to, but worse than Christianity, as yours condones violence.
Sam, I have read many articles on people who condemn the Quran. But I rarely come across people like you who claim the Quran was written at a different time than we think and that it was written by SEVERAL men. Once again you have not given us ANY proof of that. Even people who hate Islam do not deny the greatness of the Quran, let alone make sweeping statements about it being written by more than one person. The BIBLE, yes! It shows clear sings of being written by more than one person but you have not proved the same of the Quran. Look at URLs below.
> >so if you don't understand something in the Quran, blame it on your and my limited knowledge of the world, don't point >your finger outwards. It woudl be rather egotistical of me to claim that the world is stupid just because i don't understand >>it!
> >I never said that the Qu'ran or Islam were stupid. I said that they were primitive and barbarous. And I said it because I DO > >understand all that I need to understand to draw this conclusion.
yes you have certainly proven how much you know of Islam.
on one hand you say it is so contemptuous you
don't even want to analyse the Qur'an and on the other hand you say you
claim to know enough to make such a big sweeping statement.
> >You say that these questions cannot be answered by any of the religions. That's where you are pointing your fingers in the > >wrong direction. Islam does explain these but it's frankly your problem if you wish to deny that it does. If you can't and > >don't want to understand it, it's a different story altogether.
> >You could change the words and be a Christian. You do not know how many time that I have heard this same claptrap >>from a Christian who could not defend their religion successfully. You can not prove that I am incorrect, so you say that I do >> not understand or I am choosing to disbelieve. It is not my choice to make. It is the faith's responsibility to be concise >>enough to understand. Christianity doesn't, and Islam even less.
repitition...pls refer to my replies above..
> >I wrote:
> >with referance to your quote below
> >>>"You might have lived a good life as an exemplary Christian,
> >>>only to be met at the gates of Heaven by Mohammed.
> >>>That's called fate."
> >how interesting that you should highlight an Islamic concept. I wonder if you know that out of all the souls lined up for >>HEAVAN on Judgement Day, most will be those who lived as people of OTHER RELIGIONS OR NO RELIGION at >>all!!
> >And as I warned you not to, you read more into the quote than you should have.
I see, so YOU tell me exactly what do you come up with when you don't read into it more than u have to.
So let's hear what u have to say.
>First, only fools and children believe in a Judgement Day. Only someone
in need of a celestial parent needs to be rewarded or >punished for their
life. A God that loves unconditionally accepts ALL home. This is the God
of my belief.
From your mails I see that your god also encourages extreme ego and elevation of oneself over all others. I woulnd't be asking your opinion on who you think is a fool and who is not.
> >Second, the quote would be for you:
> >"You could have lived your whole life as a pious Muslim, only to find Jesus and St. Peter waiting for you at the > >gates of Heaven."
Oh goodie, this is my favourite part. If you do know Islam AS MUCH AS YOU CLAIM TO KNOW, you wouldn't have quoted the above. I find it amusing that all your quotes seem to reflect very Islamic concepts.
Do you know who is the first person who will be resurrected, because he is so honourable, on Judgement Day according to Islam? Not Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).....make a guess....
and if you can't make a simple guess look for verses on Judgement Day in Islam
Thanx for the quote!
> >"You could have lived your whole life as a righteous Muslim, only to find a six-foot hole awaiting you upon your death... > >and nothing more."
yes, that will be HELL for you won't it? :)
> >Do not wait too long. I do not write about Roman Mythology for the same reason that I do not write about Islam. First, > > >both are equally correct about such issues as God, and second, they are equally repulsive in their violence.
refer to my replies above...
> >I need no luck at all, sister. I have truth. Something that you lack at this point.
a piece of information is not truth just because you say it is. Neither is the information i have given. what differentiates truth from mere personal opinion is evidence, of which you have little.
> >I do not know whose site you are looking at, but this is my page with the web rings on it:
Ok Sam, you oviously are very confused about which rings u have joined
and which you have not. Not to worry, I'll e-mail somehow who knows more
about what he's doing.
THE EVIDENCE YOU WANTED:
Material on the Authenticity of the Qur'an and
Proofs that it is a
Revelation from Almighty God -
The Amazing Qur'an - http://members.tripod.com/~islamx/q/amaz.html
"Who Wrote the Holy Quran" -
Response to Difficulties in the Qur'an -
Proof ofThe Preservation of the Quran -
On The Inimitability and Authenticity of the Qur'an
Some Thoughts on the Authenticity of the Qur'an
The miracle and challenge of the Qur'an -